Derek Abbott’s certainty that he has the Webb DNA right may yet be challenged.
Of all the people involved with the Somerton Man mystery Ruth Collins has been there longer than most. She is a dogged pursuer and not afraid to call out anyone who challenges her work. Nick Pelling I’m told retired massively bruised after an engagement with RC some years back and he hasn’t climbed back into the ring since.
Now we are told that Dr Colleen Fitzpatrick and Derek Abbott’s unshakeable belief that the DNA found on hairs lifted from the bust belong to Charlie Webb is in some doubt until two other organisations publish their results: SAPOL and FSSA (Forensic Science South Australia).
“Remember also that Flinders University Dr. of Forensics Rene Blackie also gained permission from Major Crime to take hair and swab samples from SM’s plaster bust, and these were taken to FSSA for DNA analysis (under chain of evidence guidelines)*.” Ruth Collins.
*Unlike the samples taken by Derek Abbott.
So, we wait.
The South Australian Forensic Science Centre
SA Police said it was “cautiously optimistic” about the Somerton Man’s identification.
“We look forward to the outcome of further DNA work to confirm the identification, which will ultimately be determined by [the] coroner,” a spokesperson said.
In the Somerton Man case, University of Adelaide professor Derek Abbott and American genealogist Colleen Fitzpatrick compared DNA from hair without a root stuck in a plaster bust of the unnamed man’s head with samples uploaded by millions of people around the world in online databases used to create family trees.
Police generally compare DNA they find at crime scenes with samples from parents, children or siblings — if victims or perpetrators have them — to solve crimes and identify bodies.
The Australian Federal Police said earlier this year that it would go ahead with using genetic genealogy techniques to identify bodies but not yet to solve crimes.
While police worked on extracting DNA from the body in cooperation with the state coroner, Professor Abbott had begun his own investigation using a 73-year-old hair from the Somerton Man’s body.
The hair was found embedded in a plaster “death mask” made from the man’s face before he was buried in 1949.
“The professor definitely wanted to be first over the finishing line of cracking the case,” said his wife Rachel Egan, who at one time was thought to be the granddaughter of the Somerton Man.
But Professor Abbott’s background is in electrical engineering, not forensics.
Forensic scientist and criminologist, Xanthe Mallett, is also cautious about accepting Professor Abbott’s results.
“I’m not sure we’ll ever be absolutely certain,” she said.
“What we would do in a forensic context normally is to take deceased DNA and compare that directly with something we knew belonged to them, like a toothbrush or a hairbrush. We haven’t got that here. So my concern is that we may never be able to categorically say that we know this person’s identity.”
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-21/somerton-manfamily-photographs-revealed-/101643524
The Somerton Man .. 
Don’t be too surprised if’n a retired Sapol cold case detective what wrote a book on the SM mystery, has done himself a deal with his replacement to hand back custody of a certain police evidentiary suitcase and contents in exchange for indemnity against prosecution.
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It would be interesting to read if the coroner unloads on SAPOL for conducting a less than satisfactory investigation, and who knows, he may even make mention of Brown’s less than believable story of Leane losing the Freeman Rubaiyat in his filing system. Feltus himself could only find two ‘reliable’ witnesses who told him they had seen it and there was what, over a dozen police on the case throughout, not to mention Cowan and Prof Cleland, both of whom I’m certain wouldn’t have minded as squiz at the book. And of course Naval Intelligence who only days after the book was handed to Leane had to make do with a ‘similar’ copy.
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I am NOT waiting for the DNA results from SAPOL because I know from facial ID tests – my own ID tests and also those I asked an expert who determined the GRU agents in the Skripal case. We both arrived at the same concusion Carl was the SM. As you know (and mention) I originally held a belief that the SM was Rudolf Mons based purely on Betaface facial ID testing but with proper facial ID testing OpenCV etc they never appraised them as the same person. But I had a lot of circumstantial evidence about Mons – e.g. his hands, crease lines, ears and legs (he was an alpine SAS type guy in his youth and therefore a mountain climber). I wrote to all military experts on Mons and they supplied all pictures they had. But I was unable to get OpenCV etc to say they were the same person and therefore they were doppelgangers – who matched possibly physically and intellectually as well.
But Mons and Webb were a massive historical coincidence and they were not the same person. But like I say Mons is really the Unknown Man with no genealogy, no grave, no grave marker whereas the Somerton Man was Carl Webb.
The last few days I have been researching Carl Webb’s links to Camperdown which I believe he remembered as his ‘happy childhood place’ until aged 12 and my theory I am researching is that he returned there in 1942. He possibly stayed with Gerald Keane’s mother or brother a few doors down from the Camperdown Chronicle (CC) offices in Manifold Street. I have written to the CC to ask them whether Carl was Spotter in the CC in 1942 for a few months. The only non-journalist who worked as a journalist because his brother-in-law Scott (or his relative) owned the CC, relying on nepotism to get a job after his dad died in 1939. “If true” it leads to a conclusion that he attended hospital in 1942 in Camperdown and possibly had surgery on his feet which may be the reason he didn’t enlist and why he met and married foot specialist Dorothy.
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Carl Webb doesn’t fit the evidence, and it’s likely we wasn’t in Australia then
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If there had have been a Freeman Rubaiyat, surely someone out there who saw it would have coughed by now. As for Cleland, I doubt that he be one of those as he didn’t make mention in his hand written notes (some1970). I’m still having troubles coming to terms with the Les Wytkin hand in of 22 July 1949, same day or day earlier.
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Les Wytkins got out of dodge lickety split after his hour of fame and spent the rest of his days with his new squeeze May over by Swan Reach. Meantime his ex missus whatsherface moved in with a Detective who lived a few doors further down Partridge St. from her mum’s place. Got all the rel. gen. down pat at Nick’s place somewhere if’n you want to spend time chasing it up.
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The thick plottens..
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Did the police look further into Wytkin’s story? They searched high and low for a copy of the Rubaiyat in Adelaide, I’m wondering if they tried to trace the fate of Wytkin’s book. Strange is it not. that neither Wytkin’s Rubaiyat or Freeman’s copy have ever been seen, only talked about?
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David Morgan, have you done the same facial ID tests on Richard Charles Webb?
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Cleland did mention a few things on the Rubaiyat in his handwritten notes, exhibit B, so I’d say its probable that he saw it.
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The death doppelgangers
https://imgur.com/gallery/PTM9aIb
Yes, I’ve tested all the family. Roy also appeared to have an older version of himself on someone’s web site in 2023. But as soon as I wrote about him on the CM site it was pulled down. Imagine it may have been there for 10 years untouched. It suggests someone who was a CM member had a picture of Roy – as an older man. It was suggested to me a former policeman …but not sanders.
Now my theory is it is post-war – since he appears to have false/good teeth and therefore isn’t buried at Thanby. Imagine if Carl knew he would have lived on.
We know Roy matches Roy.
https://imgur.com/gallery/57XUjZN
So then Roy still matches Roy.
https://imgur.com/gallery/dO2M1qO
I repeated this test in multiple systems to check.
If you search with Roy ‘older’ you’ll find Roy using Pimeyes.
I had hoped an australian journalist would pick up on Roy older and ask in Australia whose grandad he was?
I also asked AI (You.com) about the SM on the CM site and it extracted that blood pooling in his head was an issue highlighted on CM.
When I researched the Pyjama Girl Dr Palmer Benbow said he believed she was carried slung on the back of a horse, post-mortem. He had been a surgeon during WW1 and saw a lot of bodies carried on horses – blood pooling in the head. Dr PB would say to investigate jockeys, horses etc who threw him on the beach and then found his body.
Dr PB believed Ginger Quinn was the killer of the PG. If you research him soon after the death of the PG he was in hospital saying his horse threw him off and he broke his leg. But it could be she was carried on the back of a bull by the son of the wealthy land owner. Another “place the body and discover it”.
I am still waiting to see the lyrics of Leo Keane’s PG song that he recorded. Perhaps it offers clues about Ginger Quinn – the illegitimate son of the Scottish police chief (possibly) or even the CM code. Did poetry-mad Carl really compose it for Leo to record?
Carl was ginger as a child who decided perhaps he’d had enough insults (the milkman’s son etc.) and went blond. Perhaps he was a genetic misfit in the family and it might be explained by DNA that his mother was his mother but RAW wasn’t his dad.
In the CC 1942 Spotter writes about a soldier named Ginger.
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David .. Richard Webb, how did that AI testing / comparison go, forget Roy.
As a matter of fact, and seeing you have expertise in the AI field, would you be willing to compare a pic of Richard to one of Carl … see what ‘it’ comes up with?
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Yes @Calypso, J.B.Cleland certainly did make mention of the Rubaiyat in his hand written notes, however these referred to a McMillan edition of same and not the Ron Francis ‘Freeman’ NZ W&T C&F pocket compendium version. Unless you can counter that, then I rest my case that he had not seen SM’s ROK.
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Agreed.
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Peteb #
Taffy’s a foony coont and that’s no lie. The boyo flately refuses to any question is if it be loaded and simply ignores points of view that be contrary to his own. Then when caught in a porky pie, he’l drop the subject like a hot brick and move directly on to the next with an air of confidence. Not your run o’ mill Geordie be our daffy Dafydd M. being the epitome of a educated gent and sincere; yet a foony coont to boot in spite of it…distracted? Can’t imagine what would make one think that of the bloke but each to their own eh Sandra?
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I’m sure David will realise the importance of asking AI if the available images of both Carl and Richard correspond, particularly given the similarities in the shape of their ears, their foreheads and noses. Then of course they both share the same head-hair growth pattern.
Tufty like.
Over to you David.
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In your dreams Peteb. What you got from David is all you’re likely to; a cute put down and lucky to get that. I’m on to the scheming count’s ways by now.
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He sure does write a lot of words.
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I’m on to his every move no matter how he twists his words.
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No, yes and…G. F………….o, a Sicilian migrant fruiterer.
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Calypso, do your worst mate … meanwhile
zzzzzzzz
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